Thus spaketh an 11-year-old girl at Whitehorse middle school
according to witnesses
TODAY’S QUIZ: Guess who is allowed back in school and who is not? Answers at bottom of this blog.
We excerpt three separate Madison police interviews conducted February 19 with witnesses of the event that occurred February 13 at Whitehorse middle school. More can be found on the Madison Police website.
The principals here are:
• Robert Mueller-Owens, the positive behavior coach. Identified as white.
• XXX — the 11-year-old subject whose mother and grandmother alleged she was unduly physically accosted, identified as black
• Barbara Pietz, the classroom teacher, identified as white
• Tammy Gue, special education assistant, identified as black
• Classmate — an 11-year-old witness whose name is redacted in the police report, race uncertain due to redaction on the police report.
Police interview with Tammy Gue
Gue said Mueller-Owens was standing there with his hands folded in front of him and XXX kept cursing him out. Mueller-Owens then turned to Pietz and said she needed to remove her class and take them to the LMC. Mueller-Owens then nudged XXX and said, “Go.”
Gue described the nudge as placing his open palm of one of his hands on XXX’s back and pushing her forward. Gue said XXX then pulled her shoulders backward, like to indicate Get Off Me. and then said, “Don’t fucking touch me. I’m not fucking going anywhere. You white, bald-headed motherfucker.”
Gue told me XXX walked to the door, opened it and closed it. Mueller-Owens stuck his foot in the door. … both of them [were] playing tug-of-war with the door … and then [Mueller-Owens] pushes her out of the door using the open palm of one of his hands. She said XXX then punched Mueller-Owens in the face, using the closed fist of one of her hands and breaking his eyeglasses.
Gue stated hands just started flailing between between them both, with XXX stating, “Don’t fucking touch me.” … Gue tries to get in between them but before she could do that Mueller-Owens grabs both of them, pivots, and throws them onto the ground. Gue told me she wound up on her knees with her legs on XXX’s legs and holding XXX’s right hand down. Gue stated she took XXX into the computer room and then XXX started screaming about her hair, saying Mueller-Owens tore her hair out.
Gue said she never saw Mueller-Owens grab XXX’s hair but saw his physical aggression as he was pushing XXX out of the class. Gue stated she saw suspected when the hands started flying Mueller-Owens caught one of the braids. I asked Gue who started the physical contact and she said Mueller-Owens. She stated there was no justification for Mueller-Owens to push her out of the classroom.
Police interview with Mrs. Pietz
Pietz said at the beginning of the day … she smelled air freshener. Pietz told me she had fragrance sensitivity. She told me her eyes will water and she will cough. … She stated XXX came by her classroom again and sprayed air freshener into the classroom.
Pietz stated she called down to the office … can someone please come and take the air freshener away from her. Pietz told me she completed science with her class and then XXX’s class comes in. She said XXX did not come right away with her class but came in halfway through the class with a staff member and was told to go sit in her seat … but didn’t sit in her seat and sat in a seat in front of the class near some friends. Pietz said she went over to redirect XXX to sit in her seat. XXX didn’t move so Pietz went back to teaching her class.
Pietz told me XXX had headphones connected to her cell phone and was listening to music and continuing to talk to her friends, disrupting class. Pietz said she talked to XXX three more times trying to get her to move to her seat. Pietz finally walked over to her and stood next to her and told her she needed to go to her seat, now. XXX told Pietz, “I was going to but I’m not going to now because you are standing by me. You need to go away.” Pietz told her, “I’m going to stand by you until you go to your seat. You’ve had multiple chances.”
XXX then told Pietz, “I’m going to spray air freshener in your face.” … Pietz told me she then called for support, again.
Special education assistant Tammy Gue came to the classroom. Gue tried to get XXX to leave the classroom but she wouldn’t go. Gue called for Robert Mueller-Owens, positive behavior coach. ….
Mueller-Owens stands in the doorway and quietly motions to XXX to get her attention to come out but she ignores him. He then comes into the room and asks XXX to come over. She walks over to the door but refuses to leave the room. Pietz told me Mueller-Owens lightly put his arm around XXX’s upper back to guide her out of the room. XXX then got upset and started yelling, “Don’t touch me. You can’t touch me.”
Pietz said Mueller-Owens backed off and stood in the corner, trying to give XXX some space. … Pietz couldn’t remember if it was Mueller-Owens or Gue but one of them radioed for the school security officer to respond. Mueller-Owens then asked Pietz if she would escort her class to the LMC (library). Pietz said … something happened behind her back … when she looked Mueller-Owens and XXX were out in the hallway on the floor. Mueller-Owens’ glasses were also on the floor. … Pietz then heard Gue say “I got her Rob, you can get up.” Pietz then closed the classroom door.
Police interview with 11-year-old classmate
[Classmate] said XXX was not sitting down in her seat as she was instructed to do by Mrs. Pietz [the classroom teacher] and replied “I’ll sit down when you take a shower.”
XXX explained that students think it can smell in the classroom at times and that XXX was going to spray Fabreze at Mrs. Pietz … Mrs. Pietz called for support and Mr. Rob [Mueller-Owens] showed up to help with the situation. Mr. Rob asked XXX to walk out of the classroom with him but XXX stated she was not going to leave. Mr. Rob then grabbed her arm and told her she had to leave the classroom but … XXX then told Mr. Rob if he touched her again she would punch him. Mr. Rob then called for additional support …
XXX began throwing punches at Mr. Rob with a closed fist. … using both fists to repeatedly punch Mr. Rob in the face and ended up knocking his eyeglasses off his face … while she was punching Mr. Rob in the face with both firsts, Mr. Rob was trying to grab (her) hands and shoulders to “get her off of him.”
… Mr. Rob and XXX left the classroom … but as she looked further she could see Mr. Rob on the floor of the hallway. XXX told me another teacher, possibly Mrs. Tammy [Gue] went over to help Mr. Rob get off the floor as he was slow to get up . XXX stated she could see Mr. Rob’s face and … he was “all red.” I asked (the witness) if she saw Mr. Rob hit or punch XXX at all during the incident and she replied “no.”
Blaska’s Bottom Line: The police report is very thorough. It indicates Robert Mueller-Owens completed MMSD’s non-violent crisis intervention training program on August 21, 2018. He also received training in something called Advanced Physical Hold-Supine training on September 24, 2018.
Blaska’s Final Question: How many of us have that training, not to mention that kind of patience?
Answers to the quiz: XXX is back in school. Mr. Mueller-Owens is not.
120 responses to ““I’m not F-XXX-ing going anywhere, you white, bald-headed motherXXXX-er.” ”
Civil suit for 3-4 million in 3…2…1… And the city will roll over and pay it. So glad we moved out of this bastion of liberal nonsense. I for one refuse to apologize for the color I was born with and will continue to hold my children accountable for their actions.
I’m sure Mr. Rob will be rushing to Ms. Tami’s aid the next tome she calls him. What an ingrate.
”Some members of our community have coupled this information with their own experience, DRAWING CONCLUSIONS THAT ARE SIMPLY WRONG” (bolds/caps mine)
Whaddya bet Mommy & Gammy’s main concern is their anticipated payday getting derailed? Another easy money bet: think the 11 year old child has a, shall we say, pattern of behavior?
Serious question; is it policy that yer supposed to call CPS to deal with feral youth outbreaks in MMSD facilities? What are they trained/equipped to do…take notes and make recommendations?
Wouldn’t SRO’s be better equipped/trained to handle this type of…um…incident?
Or should the self-segregated Community handle things in their own way?
Can hardly wait to see how the UNJustified Anger plays out.
The Gotch
XXX is a Black Baby according to the talented Ms. Brandi Grayson.
Could be my sheltered existence, but I’ve never, and I mean NEVER, heard a mouth like that on an 11 year-old.
The Gotch
I’m told it is common in kindergarten. Read also the letter to the editor in this morning’s WI State Journal.
”Read also the letter to the editor in this morning’s WI State Journal.”
Profanity-Laced Vocabulary Is Boring Amy Kinast
Couldn’t agree more; those whose education, training, and socialization limits their verbal discourse to such language suffer from (amongst myriad other things) a lack of imagination.
That’s why I prefer to refer to certain commenters as bespawling addlepates, or using MY “F” words: Flaccidly Feeble Fopdoodles.
The Gotch
Maybe if the schools could improve the 11-year-old’s vocabulary we could go a long way toward rehabilitating her. It must be very frustrating for a pre-teen to have so much misplaced anger and nowhere to go with it other than carpet-bombing her environment with f-bombs. She needs to improve her vocabulary. An obscure corner of academia can show her the way, though the Madison Public Schools are unlikely to show the path. Reinhold Aman briefly published “Maledicta,” the International Journal of Verbal Aggression, which pointed the way toward more diversity in cuss words. I doubt the Whitehorse Middle School library has a copy though.
@Rich Eggleston;
”Maybe if the schools could improve the 11-year-old’s vocabulary we could go a long way toward rehabilitating her.”
GREAT point, but I believe the parent (no mention of a Father) & grandparent had criminally failed this child LONG before she got to where she is now.
C’mon, where does an 11 year-old get the idea that an authority figure telling her to put away her F*****G (another rant for another time) Boop-Beep-Beep device, in a SCHOOL ROOM, is nothing more than a mere suggestion she can either heed or ignore??
Despite coming under some fair scrutiny, the Word Gap is a good jumping off point.
IMHO, children that are reasonably well-prepared, once they begin matriculating, have heard exponentially more spoken words, either one-on-one directly or being read to, than their less prepared counterparts; THAT’S on the parental units, whoever they may be, in BOTH scenarios.
My observation? XXX’s mother is that she’s below average in the communication arts department. It wouldn’t surprise me in the least if XXX’s main activity during her formative years was being plopped in front of the Boob Tube.
Choice, not chance, determines success!
The Gotch
The schools need better discipline. For those who have forgotten: discipline is training children to obey authority. No child is well-served when they are not trained to have self-control and to obey authority. I feel sorry for XXX because her family has dropped the ball on this and the school will now as well. It seems the MMSD is preparing students to be life-long protestors, victims and complainers. This is not a productive use of their life.
Discipline isn’t the school’s job – it is the parents’ job.
If I acted up at school, I might face the dreaded “note to the parents” that would likely result in spankings by both my mother and my father.
If I was truly bad, I might face the “board of education” in the principal’s office, followed by the dreaded note.
My bet is that the child has no father, little or no discipline at home and that a note from the teacher about her behavior would little or no consequences.
I agree with you! The problem in the schools goes back to the breakdown in the family, feminism, taking God and prayer out of schools and the 10 Commandments out of government buildings. But I am probably not going to win that debate in Madison.
Harry_the_Horrible wrote, “Discipline isn’t the school’s job – it is the parents’ job.”
I understand what you’re trying to convey that discipline should start in the home but the way you worded that it’s false.
Teaching discipline and respect is everyone’s job. Maintaining discipline in the home – is the job of the parents, maintaining discipline in the school – is the job of the school, maintaining discipline in the workplace – is the job of the employer, maintaining the discipline of following the law – is the job of the justice system and that usually starts with the police, maintaining discipline in oneself as an adult – is the job of the individual adult, etc, etc. Everyone has a hand in maintaining discipline.
It matters not if the child has been taught discipline or respect in the home, that child is rightfully expected to be respectful of authority, school mates, and school staff and they are rightfully expected to act in a disciplined manner at school, anything outside that reality is a rationalization and enables bad behavior.
This here’s the Parent/Grandparent to Prison pipeline operation being observed in real time.
The Gotch
A lot of the comments that follow dwell on whose responsibility it is to correct XXXX’s behavior and what the proper, professional response would be. To which I reply, ‘God help us.” Has society deteriorated so much that we are even having this discussion?
Particularly telling was the “you CAN’T touch me.” She knows exactly what will trip the triggers.
I am certified by the Crisis Prevention Institute to both preform Non Violent Physical Crisis Intervention and Train Non Violent Crisis Intervention, Advanced Supine as well as being certified in “Handle with Care”, the Physical crisis management program required by the state of Illinois for minors. As a person who has worked with both adults and children with conduct disorders for 17 years, spent the last 10 training others to do the same and investigating/reviewing incidents requiring physical crisis intervention and overseeing the development of behavioral support plans, I feel confident in raising my hand to answer your final question: I have and I do.
Unfortunately, The positive behavior coach is in the wrong here, and it all boils down the door. Her opening and closing of the door was causing a distraction, but not a risk. She could have done this all day and it would not have physically harmed anyone. Distract others, absolutely, Harm others, Absolutely not. The physical altercation resulted as a resulted from his physical contact with the child and his power struggle over a door. Plain and simple. Given all accounts of the physical intervention, again, not acting as trained. Most of non violent crisis intervention is self protection through blocking and deflecting blows, given all accounts of the story, he did neither as 2 of the three witnesses report him engaging with both hands, which would indicate attempting to grab the wrists or arms, which is not trained. He should have blocked the blows and backed away, at which point she would have disengaged from the attack or pursued and continued, either would have removed her from the classroom. The account that his hands caught one of her braids during the intervention confirms he wasn’t acting as trained.
As for the accounts of the incidents, the teachers seems least reliable. It sounds rehearsed and coached. Again, this is coming from someone who has reviewed and investigated hundreds of physical interventions. Tammy Gue’s account is probably the most accurate, as it jibes nicely with the student witness’ account of situation. Additionally, the teacher has no account of the intervention as she reports her back was turned.
In Sum, A positive behavior coach was asked to assist in an incident of verbal aggression. None of the accounts indicate he made any attempt to verbally de-escalate the situation, he made unwarranted physical contact with the student, as confirmed by two witnesses. He failed to follow self protection techniques as trained, resulting the student’s hair being pulled inadvertently. I am unsure as to what action the school or police department have taken on this issue. There may not be charges filed criminally, however I would recommend the individual be either terminated or, at the very least, barred from intervening in situations requiring physical intervention.
While it might make some people feel better to have disruptive students physically dragged out of classrooms, it’s not productive, its not helpful and it does not promote the positive behavior needed in a classroom situation. When the positive behavior coach arrived, he should have assessed the situation, attempted verbal de-escalation, if unsuccessful, he should have directed the teacher and her students out of the area to “remove the audience” and attempted further de-escalation. Yes, it would have been more of disruption but certainly no more of a disruption than his actions resulted in.
Final question: What does any of these people’s race have to do with this? Because she called him a “White, Bald headed motherf*****”? Guess what, if you work with people with behavioral challenges, you get called names. Had this been a black behavior coach and white student, the N-bomb would have been dropped before any physical contact was made. Its just what happens, and it is absolutely what he signed up for.
What does race have to do with it? I dunno, ask Brandi Grayson of Young Gifted & Black. Ask Bianca Gomez of Freedom Inc. They shut down the Madison school board meeting on February 25, forcing members to retreat to a locked room closed off to the public. Ask Superintendent of Schools Cheatham, who announced she was setting up a race incident hot line and re-education in implicit bias and white privilege for all teachers.
And the positive behavior coach did try to move the entire classroom out in order to placate this one student.
How about trying this on for size: If teacher says don’t spray me with your foreign substance, you turn over the spray can. If teacher says lose the headphones, sit in your assigned seat, and pay attention, that is what you do. When the principal’s office says you’re coming with me, you go.
The sooner that lesson gets learned, the less likely that child enters the school-to-prison pipeline.
If the teacher was asked to remove the other students to the LMC, why did “Mr. Rob” need to nudge/guide/push/drag XXXX to the door? That part does not make sense to the situation. You asked who has the patience and the training. I do, plus the experience of nearly two decades of working closely with conduct disorders in a variety of settings, a certified instructor in the crisis intervention training you referenced, and a decade of investigating and reviewing physical interventions to ensure policy and program plans were followed. Teachers explanation of the event is clearly rehearsed as she uses language that is either in a behavioral support plan for the student or a policy manual for the school. The student and the Aide’s account of the situation jibe nicely. The Positive Behavior Coach was in the wrong. Didn’t follow his training, didn’t follow policy. Yes, the student was disruptive, he caused more of disruption given his actions. Students should have been guided out of the room, he should have dealt with the situation without an audience and then followed up with administration and staffed the incident to make the necessary changes to her plans or placement within that classroom.
You didn’t post his account of the situation, and it would be nice if you did, although it would make little difference. As for the racial angle of this, I don’t know, I literally knew nothing of this case until Vicki McKenna posted something and I clicked on it. You asked who has the patience and training… I do… it was a bad intervention. MMSD, and anyone running for school board should support that assessment.
And again, Dragging a student out of a classroom might make some people feel better, but its not helping anyone. I read your post and responded with what I thought was a request for a professional assessment of the situation. The student wasn’t spraying the bottle at the teacher, she had it in her hand. The teacher acted appropriately in requesting assistance, the Aide acted appropriately in requesting further assistance. The positive behavior coach did not attempt to de-escalate the situation, made unwarranted physical contact, engaged in a power struggle and ultimately created situation that was more disruptive than the one he entered, a situation that turned physical and a situation in which he did not follow the nonviolent crisis intervention techniques he was trained in and that policy requires. Professional Assessment.
So much of what you wrote — is absolutely correct. If the only thing you consider is The Training.
But when you look at the Big Picture, none of that matters.
The student had ALREADY assaulted her teacher with the air freshener. –When you know that someone has a severe physical response to scents, and you exploit that physical response with air freshener, that is an assault.
At the moment she did that, this was no longer a “disruption”. It was a crime.
Once she has committed an assault, and subsequently refuses verbal directions, she became a threat to everyone around her.
Brenden wrote, “If the teacher was asked to remove the other students to the LMC, why did “Mr. Rob” need to nudge/guide/push/drag XXXX to the door?”
Try reading the report more thoroughly; XXX, Mueller-Owens and Gue were already by the door (don’t you remember the part where XXX was opening and closing the classroom door on Mueller-Owens foot) when he told the teacher to escort her class to the library therefore the doorway needed to be cleared of the unruly child before the class could be escorted out of the room.
NOTE: All well intentioned training plans that enable bad behavior go right down the drain when the fists start flying.
Brenden,
It seems to me that you’re rationalizing the behavior of the unruly/violent child and trying to unethically shift the blame of the incident onto Mueller-Owens.
So, it’s OK to be carrying around an air freshener in class to be used as a weapon against a teacher. I wonder if Mom or Grandma paid for that.
OK OK OK – I get it – the adults are supposed to bend over and take it from the kids. What a long-winded crock you are!
@Brenden;
“She could have done this all day and it would not have physically harmed anyone. Distract others, absolutely, Harm others, Absolutely not.”
So this Black Baby (with how many similar incidents?) needs to have her misbehavior validated yet again at the expense of all the other students, ostensibly there to learn?
Distraction isn’t harmful? Think yer minimizing the effects of that “distraction” on the others in the class a tad?
“Had this been a black behavior coach and white student, the N-bomb would have been dropped before any physical contact was made.”
So, an EVIL White kid would jump to racial slurs SOONER than would a Black kid? That about sum it up?
Honestly, youse think that any EVIL White kid that did that wouldn’t be hopelessly pilloried, paraded as a textbook example of homegrown White Supremacy, and his family tarred as RAYcists, doxxed, and ridden out of town on a rail?
The Gotch
No, she doesn’t need to have her behavior validated. The audience needs to be removed, the situation would have been dealt with without the support of her peers, which, lets face it, remember back to being 11 years old… every single one of us would have egged on this behavior rather than learned about whatever it was we were supposed to be learning about…. With the student isolated from her peers, verbal de-escalation would have been easier, the aide and behavior coach would have been able remove the student to whatever safe area there was, the class could return, learning could commence and there would be no demonstration at a school board meeting. The behavior coach, teacher and aide could have staffed the situation with administration, made necessary changes to the students behavior plan, IEP or class schedule and her impact on other learners would have been minimized. Again, this is an apolitical, professional assessment from someone who is trained in dealing with these situations and training others to do so.
@Brenden;
“every single one of us would have egged on this behavior rather than learned about whatever it was we were supposed to be learning about”
Not so sure. Though I was unemployed at that age (couldn’t get a paper route until age 12), I was still a rough-n-tumble young welp, raised near the edge of the known Universe; late 50’s/early 60’s Glen Oaks Hills/Crestwood area.
I believe I can say, without equivocation, that THAT sequence would have freaked me out!
The Gotch
Brenden wrote, “lets face it, remember back to being 11 years old… every single one of us would have egged on this behavior rather than learned about whatever it was we were supposed to be learning about….”
You are completely full or rationalizations.
No, you damn fool, not every single one of us would do these kind of things, only disrespectful juvenile delinquents would engage in such behaviors. Were you a disrespectful juvenile delinquent?
Absolutely ridiculous obfuscating and excuse-making. The STUDENT — not anyone else — is the one who repeatedly assaulted a disabled teacher, punched a staff person in the face, broke his glasses, uttered racist insults, and repeatedly disrupted classrooms — plural — throughout that day (what about all the OTHER kids in those classrooms? Do they not have any rights to an education??). And yet you blame the school staff person whose professional and personal reputation has been falsely sullied, and his career put in jeopardy.
YOU are part of the problem. Whatever serious problems this student may or may not have, she was the one instigating violence, assaulted a disabled teacher, repeatedly and intentionally disrupted the learning environment, and punched the staff person while screaming profanities and racist insults.
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. This school district is sliding in slow-motion towards anarchy and mediocrity. That particular school is borderline FAILING even by DPI’s generous report-card standards. You are too close to the problem to see it.
And all of us get to sit here and pay tens of millions for the PRIVILEGE of being called racists by Jussie Smollett wannabes who get a free pass to blame all of their bad behavior and horrible parenting on everyone else!?!?!
Get outta here with that B.S.
Wow… I never thought that a professional response was going to garner such hatred. I’m trained to do this… Physical intervention is NEVER a win for anyone. It further validates the behavior of she who is acting out and only creates bigger hurdle for those who are trying to coach for positive behavior. A student acting out ALWAYS has the support of their peers, that’s why intervention always needs to occur isolated from them. That’s not from me, that’s from the training this gentleman received. If you want to attack the racial element to the response.. go nuts. But the “Mr. Rob” was in the wrong. Wrong by training, Wrong by Policy, Wrong by Plan.
Again, I only know about this WHOLE situation because I’m a Vicki McKenna fan and she posted this link on her facebook…. I clicked on it, Blaska asked a question about training and patience… I have both, and so I gave my assessment as a professional.
Brenden wrote, “Wow… I never thought that a professional response was going to garner such hatred.”
Where do you see hatred? Explain your accusation.
When a self proclaimed “professional” comes here and spouts one rationalization after another trying to justify their arguments, a real professional would have expected push back. But of course you appear to be of the mindset that’s roughly equivalent to progressives and social justice warriors so you are under a false sense of superiority and think your opinion should not be contested. Guess what Brenden, your opinion is just that, an opinion, and publicly posting your opinion here opens you up for direct challenges about your opinion and even ridicule. You’re in the kitchen, if it’s too hot, leave.
“…..made necessary changes to the students behavior plan…”
Oh for FS. I’ll write it for them.
” Knock it the hell off, or be expelled.”
Back in the day, we wouldn’t have to remove the class for one student, it would be the other way around. This is so ass backwards!
@Therese Kaufman;
“Oh for FS. I’ll write it for them.”
Congrats! Gut Laugh Leader Board entry!
But youse could have been a tad more succinct…
The Gotch
Nothing but excuses and obfuscation.
This incident will probably trigger a lawsuit. Great job failure-parents and MMSD bureaucracy. Pathetic.
Please, please, now. Ye shall QUESTION NOT the all-knowing certified professional with elite experience!!!! Oh but WAIT! — are we talking about a commenter on a blog — or the actual professional staff person who was actually THERE and who was physically and verbally attacked with punches to the face, had glasses broken, and was taunted with profanities and racial slurs and then had his name and reputation dragged through the mud and got thrown under the bus by a cowardly, incompetent Superintendent and who was LIED ABOUT and slandered by said Supt. and Jussie Smollett wannabe’s in local anarchist activist groups who love to LIE about things and generate unfounded racial tensions?!?!! It’s so confusing. Let’s all just shut up, not question or critique anyone (least of all the Credentialed Expert), and pay our taxes for the PRIVILEGE of being accused and blamed for other people’s atrocious parenting and out-of-control kids.
Well said.. Gotcha.. as a society we’ve been practicing making excuses for far too long..people like Brendan have made up rules for children’s misbehaviorthat’s set no example or deterrent for the other students… What is this mr. Brendan, job security. As the border crisis clearly shows any behavior that’s positively reinforced will be repeated. The consequences for this child’s past negative behaviors was not enough to overcome the ego stroke of rebellion. That should be the child’s last chance to disrupt a class with assaultive behavior..
This situation sets a most terrible precedent. You don’t get to assault your teachers and hit school Staff, and then pretend to be The Victim when they hit back.
It may be that “the techniques taught by The Training” were not applied correctly in this scenario. However, that is irrelevant. The student had already assaulted her teacher and her unpredictable behavior made it increasingly likely that other people around her would be hurt.
For the well-being of the people around her, she needed to be removed, and she did not go willingly. Anything short of deadly force was justified. (And, if she brandished a weapon, then deadly force was also an option.)
While, I agree with you, it tends to be a better technique in general to block blows and back away (I have dealt with temper tantrums), he did try to get the kids to leave the classroom but it appears XXX was messing with the door at the same time? Getting punched in the nose and glasses broken and not reacting to protect yourself requires Sainthood levels of patience and you are a) requiring perfection on the part of the behavior coach and b) expecting nothing of the child; so in the end, I disagree with you. She was also threatening to spray the teacher in the face with air freshener. The *child* was out of control. The teacher and behavior coach did the best they could.
Thank you for a response that doesn’t make me shudder in disbelief (the guy that thinks deadly force is necessary scares the hell out of me). The thing is, everyone seems to assume that physical intervention is the only thing that would “Teach this student a lesson” when that couldn’t be further from the truth. As a person who’s dealt with similar situations (nearly identical) in the past, I can tell you that the absolute best course of action to minimize the students feeling of validation in this circumstance would to be remove her audience. Get the students out of the area, deal with her without a cheering section, get her to leave the area and allow the students to return in short order. Her behavior would not be mentioned to other learners and her conduct would be reviewed with administration and necessary modifications to her plans and her class schedule would be made at the administrative level. The only thing that validates her behavior now is the fact that there are people on a blog, operated by a dude running for the school board, that has comments suggesting deadly force would have been appropriate to deal with the situation.
Also, any person who takes a job that requires them to go through CPI training and get certified in Supine restraints absolutely understands that getting punched in the face is part of the job. Speaking as a guy who’s been punched in the face… and kicked… and stabbed, many times (once with a spoon, by a guy in a wheelchair, while simultaneously getting punched in the face by another guy in a wheelchair, trying to separate the two) and pushed down stairs, and had someone grab his arm, wrap it over their shoulder and drag them violently into a bathroom screaming “I LOVE YOU!!!” sounding like Elmo from hell (causing cartilage tears that are only noticeable when throwing a garbage bag into a garbage can), multiple concussions and a host of other injuries… It does not require the patience of a saint to follow your training, hold up your arms to block the blows and back out of an area.
Brenden wrote, “the guy that thinks deadly force is necessary scares the hell out of me”
What did I miss, who here did that?
Brenden, wrote, “the guy that thinks deadly force is necessary scares the hell out of me”
Ok I found the statement that you are twisting into approval of deadly force in this instance; in that regard Brenden, you’re a liar.
Way to take my comment out of context Brenden. I said “Anything short of deadly force was justified.”
As that greatest of behavioral modification instructors, Michael Tyson, so astutely observed: “Everybody have plan until they get hit in da mouf “.
I ask you this: if her mother or grandmother came into that classroom and gave her an order, would she have complied? This is the problem – that we are allowing disobedience. Kids need leaders who tell them to control themselves and expect them to comply but the current behavior plan in the schools is tying teachers hands behind their backs Jiminy cricket.
Just a couple of points Brendan. The comment about deadly force presupposed a weapon, which was not present, and I don’t believe he was talking about a spoon. You don’t say whether or not you were stabbed with a knife, but I’m assuming you would still consider it “part of the job.” In which case I would say that it doesn’t take a saint or a properly trained individual to accept such a job risk, but rather insanity, as in you’d have to be crazy to even consider that as part of the job. Only police officers are required to accept that kind of risk, and we give them guns.
And can I just say that happily accepting your list of injuries may not provide the proper type of negative reinforcement to these students, that might actually convince them to change their behavior. If they suffer no consequences for violent behavior, I don’t see them stopping it. So I’m curious, did all of those injuries result in criminal charges, at least? I mean if they suffer an ass whopping, shouldn’t they at least face a criminal court? Or would that “just make things worse,” too?
I meant Don’t suffer an ass whopping.
“I can tell you that the absolute best course of action to minimize the students feeling of validation in this circumstance would to be remove her audience. Get the students out of the area, deal with her without a cheering section, get her to leave the area and allow the students to return in short order.“
Brenden….. What part of SHE WAS BLOCKING THE FUCKING DOOR don’t you get?
Right you are Mr. Freeman. I am incredulous that Madison schools evacuates the obedient students instead of the disruptive student. But young XXX tried to block the door. This 11-year-old obviously has problems. But you cannot threaten your teacher. You cannot hit them. You cannot disrupt the classroom. MMSD is promoting the school to prison pipeline, for all its guilt-mongering.
Brenden wrote, “the guy that thinks deadly force is necessary scares the hell out of me”
This clown is a troll. Weak projection.
You are part of the problem.
Brenden,
Did you read this account of the event…
https://daveblaska.files.wordpress.com/2019/03/narrative.png?w=609&h=276
https://daveblaska.files.wordpress.com/2019/03/narrative.png
The mom sure picks some stellar baby daddies. Check out her ccap.
https://www.channel3000.com/news/video-posted-online-shows-blurry-whitehorse-middle-school-incident/1051338886
Looks like the video surveillance system was provided by the low bidder…..
My Opinion:
1. There is absolutely no justification for student XXX to have punched Robert Mueller-Owens in the face, no excuses, no rationalizations, none what-so-ever; anyone that claims otherwise is a damn fool. This is intentional violence from a student that was being intentionally disruptive to the classroom and intentionally abusive towards staff members, this is unacceptable behavior. The student needs to be EXPELLED IMMEDIATELY from school, period.
2. If the student is not expelled from school the Madison teachers union and Robert Mueller-Owens needs to sue the Madison school district for not taking the steps required to maintain a safe working environment for staff.
3. Robert Mueller-Owens has the individual right to protect himself from assault even if the person doing the assaulting is a child. Robert Mueller-Owens did not instigate violence towards the student.
Brenden wrote, “unwarranted physical contact with the student”
You’re full of it.
David Blaska wrote:
“Madison lost a net 804 students— all Madison residents — to surrounding districts this year. They took with them $5.67 million in state funding to their suburban school districts. That doesn’t count private parochial schools or charters.”
That also doesn’t account for prospective new, young, taxpaying émigrées considering Madison as a vocational destination/place to raise a family, seeing things like this, and saying:
No_Effin’_Way!
One other thing; some of those prospective new, young, taxpaying émigrées considering Madison as a vocational destination/place to raise a family are in ELHS education.
The Gotch
Kick her out of school. Do not accept her at any physical school locations. Make her ineligible for any public assistance until she completes a high school degree or GED.
The problem will solve itself in a few years. Hinger is a great motivator.
These kids believe that no one can touch them? Why do they believe that? All of this training, to be non-violent, but no, teachers need to be able to discipline the children. By that I mean put their hands on them, grab their arms, and tie their arms behind their backs. No, I dont mean hit them. Id a teacher asks a child to move, leave the class, go to the office, then the child must move. For the child to think they can say nk and you can’t touch me, well honey, if your teacher was the same race as you, I bet you wouldn’t even try it. Racism can’t be the excuse to let children run over their teachers and as far as the cith of Madison goes, they need to fight their battles and not pay anyone a damn dime.
Wow, so I responded with a professional assessment of this situation and got nothing but hatred. Saying that this gentleman responded inappropriately to the situation is NOT a validation of her behavior. No, the “Training” does not go out the window when fists start flying, that’s specifically what the training is for. Anyone who signs on to work a job that requires that they are trained in nonviolent response to violent behavior understands that “getting punched in the face” is part of the job. A person who works at McDonald’s doesn’t get to give everyone a chicken sandwich because they don’t want to handle red meat. If you get hired to do a job that requires you work with conduct disorders, you sign on to work with individuals who will act out physically. The training this gentleman received taught him how to refrain from responding reflexively to aggression. He did not follow that training. He did not follow the policy that supports that training. He is statutorily obligated to follow his training and follow the supporting policy. He did neither. Sorry if that bursts your bubble. Dealing with challenging behavior is something that requires whole boatload of training, but moreover, requires the correct mindset, demeanor and sense of humor. Saying “She threw a punch” is irrelevant. The school district has a legal obligation to serve students with conduct disorders, developmental disorders and any other disorder they may have. The school is staffed with people who can make the necessary changes to her schedule, IEP or behavior plans. This student threatened to spray air freshener… not in the teachers face, just in the room. The teacher’s response was appropriate, the Aide’s response was appropriated, His wasn’t. If his response and the teacher’s response jibe, there may have been collusion to hide his inappropriate response. There is no politics in that assessment, nothing but policy and law. If you don’t like it, too bad.
I’ve had to fire MANY people for responses similar to his… I understood why they responded the way they did… but it didn’t matter, they were trained NOT to respond that way.
Brenden, you wrote: “This student threatened to spray air freshener… not in the teachers face, just in the room. ‘
And why do you think she did this?
To HURT her teacher. To cause respiratory distress and pain. This is a criminal assault, and not a misbehaving student.
At what point are you going to acknowledge this^^^?
Nathan Marks wrote, “At what point are you going to acknowledge this^^^?”
To acknowledge anything that holds the disruptive, abusive, threatening, and violent 11 year old child accountable for her own actions will detract from their real purpose which is to attack those in positions of authority in particular white men; to smear them as racist, smear them as inept, smear them as abusers, smear them as privileged, smear them as evil. The cult of fools want the inmates to run the asylum.
This nonsense has got to stop!
The wrong message about discipline is being sent to children in the Madison Metropolitan School District; vote for David Blaska for Madison school board to start putting back common sense in our schools.
Safe Schools = Safe Community!
Brenden, no one responded with hate. Exasperation, yes. The fact is we have teachers quitting here in Madison because they are not allowed to control their classrooms. In fact, that chaos has now spread to the school board meetings. Read this blog and prosper.
When I taught high school years ago, we avoided incidents such as this by keeping violent special education/needs children, such as XXX, out of the general student population. They each had an individual education plan, consistent with their needs, in a controlled supportive setting with teachers equipped to deal with them. This benefited the special needs child and the student body in general, and allowed the school to otherwise function to everyone’s benefit. Why is fire being mixed with gasoline today? Has the current educational elite lost their minds?
Brenden wrote, “Wow, so I responded with a professional assessment of this situation and got nothing but hatred.”
You’ve been asked before, what hatred?
You’re coming across a like a snowflake claiming to be a victim, is that really your intent. There’s no hatred here Brenden, just plenty of adults disagreeing with you. If you can’t take disagreement or support your arguments intelligently I suggest you leave.
Brenden wrote, “This student threatened to spray air freshener… not in the teachers face, just in the room.”
We’re not that stupid Brenden, we all know you’re lying again. The teacher specifically stated that “XXX then told Pietz, “I’m going to spray air freshener in your face.” “
Brenden wrote, “Saying ‘She threw a punch’ is irrelevant.”
That’s Mr. Brenden is signature significant ignorance.
Brenden when you resort to outright lies, rationalizations, and signature significant ignorance to support your arguments then you’ve lost the argument.
It’s better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.
Brenden, “HATRED” — really? People who hold different perspectives than you are not “hateful” for expressing those in a forum. People who have different standards of acceptable behavior are not “hateful.”
No wonder it just came out that the most highly-educated liberal professionals (i.e. Dane County is almost the 100th percentile nationally) are the most INTOLERANT. Look it up if you don’t believe me, a major national survey just came out.
In addition to being unable to hear opinions that differ from your own without throwing the “HATE” pejorative at those people, it seems you are seriously too close to the problem to see it. You are making excuses for the inexcusable. This behavior is not acceptable in the home or on the street — in fact it would lead to arrest even for juveniles — so why should it be acceptable in the classroom?? Maybe you have been over-conditioned to think this is somehow acceptable normal behavior and your statement that “she could’ve done this all day long” (screaming profanities, threatening teachers/staff, assaulting a disabled teacher, refusing to leave when asked to, refusing to follow reasonable direction, refusal to stop disrupting a classroom for OTHERS who also have rights) — I just fundamentally disagree with this. At some point order needs to be restored particularly when a student has repeatedly assaulted a disabled teacher and physically attacked a staff person.
Maybe we need police in middle schools too!?! How ironic that the mother was mad that the police weren’t called in.
Brenden wrote, “If his response and the teacher’s response jibe, there may have been collusion to hide his inappropriate response.”
Now you think there was collusion to hide something, what the heck is wrong with you people?
Why is it people like you COMPLETELY IGNORE the source of the problem which was clearly the disruptive, abusive, threatening, and violent child. You are literally enablers of the bad behavior to which you are supposed top be correcting. You’re part of a cult of fools and you’re too blinded by political correctness and social justice idiocracy that you can’t see it.
Brenden..please, please listen to the advice that AB posted below. You sir have just fallen into the deep dark pit that is hidden inside the Stately Manor. From now on your life will be changed forever. All I can say is Please, for the Love of God, never ever mention the New Green Deal, RBG, AOC or bike-paths. If you do your life will become a living hell. You have been warned.
ADULT CONVERSATION ZONE
Access Denied!!!!
The Gotch
bravo india tango echo mike echo
Lesiak, do you charge the positive behavior coach at Whitehorse middle school or not? That’s a binary choice. Yes or no.
NO! IS THAT CLEAR ENOUGH FOR YOU?
A breakthrough!
After all the long-winded nonsense posted here you give me a “binary choice”? That’s big of you Blaska.
@richard lesiak;
Yer non-stop/end-on-end/never-ending nonsense has earned youse the responses youse get, especially from the guy that runs the place!
OWN IT!
The Gotch
No one was talking to you crotch. Do you really consider my answer of NO never-ending nonsense?
You need a pet rescue pitbull. Then you’ll understand.
“Guess what Brenden, your opinion is just that, an opinion, and publicly posting your opinion here opens you up for direct challenges about your opinion and even ridicule.“
Brenden: welcome to Blaska’s Blog, where the right wing commentariat finds their “opinion” equal to – no, haughtily superior to – your hard earned experience, expertise, training and qualifications. Good luck, but you’re wasting your breath here.
So, Bob, you would have charged the positive behavior coach with a crime? Yes or no?
Sounds like he didn’t do his job correctly, but a crime? I’ll defer to the DA, who did due diligence in coming to his decision.
AnonyBob wrote, “Sounds like he didn’t do his job correctly”
What are you basing that opinion on?
Based on the thoughtful comments of Brenden, who sounds like he has a background in this field and knows what all this crap means. As opposed to someone who rants that his flat-earth opinion is just as valid as that of the round-earth advocates. And if that’s too subtle for you, let me know and I’ll explain in more detail.
For chrissakes you guys, he likes Miss Vicki! (shudder) It’s not like he’s some commie liberal.
AnonyBob wrote, “Based on the thoughtful comments of Brenden”
So you’re choosing to agree with the opinion of someone that talks a “good talk” about the training and is evaluating a situation from afar and you completely disregard the testimony of people who were actually there?
AnonyBob wrote, “As opposed to someone who rants that his flat-earth opinion is just as valid as that of the round-earth advocates. And if that’s too subtle for you, let me know and I’ll explain in more detail.”
Please explain further.
Suggestion: Maybe you should actually read all the comments above and not simply disregard other comments because of your predisposed bigotry against those commenters.
I wasn’t disregarding the other commenters. Just the one who said, “…publicly posting your opinion here opens you up for direct challenges about your opinion and even ridicule.“
@Anonybob;
“but you’re wasting your breath here.”
Wise advice!
Physician, heal thyself!
The Gotch